[MUSIC] Welcome back to end of weeks three and four, where again we're going to have a three way discussion with myself, Tony, and Fawaz, and the issue here is one that plays out in every single country. The relationship between the school, home, the community, and the relationship between teachers and parents. So, I'll come first of all to Tony, and ask you to say something about how those issues play out in the Australian context. And then Fawaz, perhaps you would then comment on those issues in a very different context in the Maldives. >> Well, I think the major issue that's occurring in Australia at the moment is that we have a substantial proportion of families where both parents are working. And this is a very big change from the way in which things were a couple of generations ago. And this has created all sorts of problems for parents to be actively involved, if going to the school is how involvement is interpreted. And I think what we need to recognize is that there are lots of different ways in which parents can be involved and be supportive of their child's learning without necessarily having to be in the school to do it. And I think what schools are now trying to find are strategies and practices that will enable parents to be actively involved in their child's learning from home. We find also that there are certain communities where the parents are not very active in terms of their child's education at any stage. And there are a lot of schools now that are attempting to reach out to parents before the child even goes to school. And what we're finding is that, when this happens, children are much better prepared to start their school career than previously, where they did nothing at all until the first day. So there are different ways and different things that are happening based on the social system, but also based on new knowledge that we have. >> When you say social system, Tony, that's a very different kind of concept or construct, isn't it? When we're looking at the two countries that we have here, where we've got the Maldives and we've got Australia, and we're thinking of the social system in the other countries, in Malaysia, in New Zealand, in Canada and the other countries that are involved in this program. So what is the defining characteristic, if you like? What is the key variable in the social system that impacts on that relationship that schools have with their communities? And that relationship that schools try to build with the parent community and with many of the other agencies who play a part in that relationship between school and the wider social system? >> Well again, in the Maldives, it depends on a lot things. We have started involving parents in the school activities, such as even in the school management recently, since 2008. Parents have been involved in school boards and prior to that, parents have been involved in other sort of duties like parent teacher associations, and also at home helping the kids as well. However, actually, there are issues involving parents as well. When it comes to the level of education that the parents themselves have, especially in 2008, we introduced parents into school boards, which actually created a rift between the school management and the parents, because there was a sort of belief that the parents were more powerful than the principal in running the school. So there were some parts of the country where parents came out to set the principal. So there were these issues, which mainly was an issue because of the level of education and what was expected from the parent as part of the parental involvement. Again, it's very different in the capital where the level of education of parents is quite high. The students get a lot of help at home, as well as they get a lot of support at school from the parents. So it differs in different parts of the country. >> Yes, I think that one of the things that comes across in this course is the very different kinds of responses from different countries, from people who are living away on the islands, away from the center of the action, if you like. You have in Australia this huge country in love with its states, people who are living far away from cities, far away from urban environments and so on. But in all of those contexts, one of the things that is a recurring theme is what you do about teachers who you feel may be letting down your child or your children, we might call them ineffective or even incompetent teachers, and how do we deal with that issue? How would you replace or deal with, in effect, of really competent teachers in these different contexts that we're talking about here, what's the issue? >> Well, I think there is a system responsibility as well, when we look at teachers that are not as effective as we would like them to be. And I don't think this is an issue that is unique to any country in the world at the moment. What we have is a system that employs teachers to a certain extent because none of our people want to become teachers. And the status of teaching has gone down probably in the last 20 years. Which makes it difficult for people to choose to be a teacher, unless they really, really, really want to be a teacher. So if you have some people that are not teaching as well as others, again, I would suggest there needs to be a partnership approach that is adopted. Rather than having parents in charge, or rather than having simply the principal in charge, there needs to be a process whereby the system itself takes some responsibility for the quality of teachers. And takes some responsibility for teachers that are not doing as well as we would like them to do. >> Any comment there from the Maldive context, Fawaz? >> Well, once again, when it comes to ineffective teachers, that's an issue for us throughout the school system. Mainly, again, being that our teacher training hasn't been that effective for such a long time as well. And getting teachers into, or getting people into the teaching profession, especially in the remote islands, have been an issue. Almost around 40% of our teachers are untrained teachers, especially in the islands. There has been a lot of policies put in place to train them. Even we try to come up with a teacher registration, which didn't work because the teacher registration meant that the teachers have to be qualified to a certain level. But when we reign across the policy and try to apply that to the existing teachers, almost 40% of the teachers would be jobless and there would be a lot of political issues because of that. So that has been an issue, and one of the things that we need to address is, actually what I feel is that we need to get these teachers trained so that they become more effective teachers. >> Right, this brings up a whole issue of teacher effectiveness and school effectiveness. And of course, you can have quite an effective school, but one or two, three, teachers who are ineffective can cause a huge amount of disruption, a huge amount of damage, and can be a cause for tensions between school and community. Now, you have sitting beside you there, Fawaz, someone who's possibly done more than anybody else in the known universe, as to the definitions of what makes an effective teacher, what makes an effective school. How do we deal with those issues of teachers who do not meet any of those criteria that you would have defined, Tony, as being effective? So the issue of ineffective teachers, can you say something about how you deal with that, just in about a minute or so? >> [LAUGH] Well, I think we're a lot better off than we were 15 years ago. We have a much better understanding of what is required to make schools more effective. And what we do recognize is that there has to be everybody's responsibility to do that. There needs to be decisions made at the government level. There needs to be decisions made at the system level, but also the school level and the classroom level. So I think what we now know is that schooling is a much more complex activity than we thought it was 20 years ago. And having known that, it's now a matter of saying, okay, how do we look at each of these different levels, and what do we need to do with each of these different levels in order to make it work? >> Is that what researchers would refer to as multilevel modelling? >> That could be exactly what it is. >> All right, thanks, yes. Here we are again, we come to the end. We have to look at the clock, I'm afraid. We could easily be here for another half hour exploring these very contested issues. But, as they say, brevity is the soul of wit. So I hope we've had enough wit over the course of this discussion, and we will continue this when we get to weeks five and six. So, thanks again. Tony, thanks again, Fawaz, and we shall meet again. >> Thank you. [MUSIC]
