[MUSIC] So, that's really interesting. And, I'm reminded off when I read your book, you talked about the three different discourses of the good teacher. Do you mean there are three different type of, of good teacher. >> No, that's not what I mean really. And I should say I've identified three discourses, which at the time, I felt were what I called dominant discourses. There are other discourses, of course. In fact, you know, we may be seeing the emergence of some new dominant discourses now, as we speak. By discourse I refer to, I supposed a kind of linguistic frame within which we understand something and talk about something and experience something, and in which we're encouraged to think about things in certain ways. In fact we may almost feel compelled to talk about things or to understand things within certain ways. And, and if we think about them in different ways then there's something odd about us. And the discourses which I identified, if we take the first one it's the discourse of the the competent crafts person, which has become very popular within sort of political with, within education policy. the, the, the competent crafts person discourse. It's a discourse, because it, it suggests that there is certain, way of teaching, a certain understanding of teaching and indeed of learning. That is, that's, that's, that's the right one really, This is how we understand teaching, this is how we talk about, this is how we frame policy about it. And the idea of the competent crafts person is that. Basically, teaching is about learning and developing certain skills, certain competencies. Having certain strategies at your disposal. You know, forget some empathy with students. You know, stop worrying about the social economic backgrounds of students and so on. Just focus on developing these these skills. And within that discourse, you know, you could believe that almost anybody could become a teacher, as long as they're capable of, of learning and developing certain competencies. And these competencies have subsequently been translated into standards for teachers. So, you know, you have to develop a competency to a certain level, in order to, you know, become a teacher. In order to become, another kind of teacher, and so on. So the discourse is a really, Frame, frameworks with which we're encouraged to kind of understand and think about something. And of course with in, with in the framework, there can be many different types of, of teaching. I mean so with in the competence discourse for example, you know we might say that here is room for sort of traditional front of class teaching. But there may also be room for a more student centered teaching, more progressive as it is sometimes called. I think that is the difference really, they are not types of teaching, they are ways in which we are encouraged to think about teaching or ways in which people generally. Understand teaching. >> Well let, let's, let's come back to this idea of the competent crafts person. >> Mm-hm. >> Because, I think from somebody from outside education, then, when they look at a teacher, they might think well it, a teacher does certain things. >> Yes. Isn't it possible to just say that a good teacher does this and this particular way or a good teacher does that something else in a particular way? Are you saying in fact that it is not possible to pin down teaching in that way? >> I am really. I think that teaching is, is, is some, it defines on how you define competence I suppose. If you define competence in terms of you know, certain very technical matters. Then perhaps it is possible. But, I think most of us in teaching accept that teaching is, is more than simply being competent in various ways. And, and as a teacher educator, you know, many times I remember going into a classroom and the poor student you know, teacher saying, you know, I've, I've looked, I have looked at these competencies and. I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, and yet it's just not working, what's going wrong? And I think there's nothing there for them to fall back on. and, you know, I think that the competencies can then become, very unhelpful for teachers. Apart from, you know, producing a very limited idea of what teaching is. I mean they tend, the competencies tend to shy away from, you know, sort of things which you might describe as more, the more effective aspects of, of classroom practice for example. Excuse me. And, you know, things to do with, you know, feeling, having feelings toward your, your students or recognizing and dealing with your own feelings as a, as a teacher. You know, I think, In other words, you could say that, we need to be competent in, in, in understanding and managing our own emotionality in, in the classroom. However, this, this is not usually, something that you would find included in lists of competency, I think. >> So if, if this particular approach may be not terribly helpful, for instance, for, for a student teacher or somebody starting teaching. Why has it become so popular? >> I mean it can be helpful and I think, you know, you can identify certain things about it. I mean, for example, when I first became a teacher, educator and I think that most, most universities offering Teacher training courses or teacher education courses such as PGCE's, were doing a good job and that weren't necessarily doing the same job as each other. And it is possible that some were doing you know, the job better than others. I mean for example, in some universities, PGC work, frankly, was just given over to subject specialists who perhaps didn't really want to do it, but somebody had to do it. One of the things that, the introduction of lists of competencies has, done, I think, is to, is to create a certain, a certain standardization. And I don't think that's particularly necessarily bad, it's also produced a certain kind of transparency, so that, you know. A student teacher can, can see exactly you know what they're supposed to do in terms of competencies and and why they're you know they're being told they're doing something well or not well. This, but it's not enough on its own. And I think the problem is, it has become a dominant discourse. And it ties in very neatly with, with, similar kind of discourses. So related to notions of performativity, you know? Everything has to be measured. But some things aren't easily measured. So the things that aren't easily measured. You either exclude them from the list. > You know. Or you, you come up with some way of measuring them which really doesn't work. And I think, so I think the popularity is very much linked to, to, you know, a movement generally at the same time, you know, we, we've, for example, a movement back towards end of, you know, end of course sit down pen and paper examinations toward standard attainment tests. Towards, certainly in the beginning, a very, very prescriptive national curriculum. So part of a general kind of trend to itemize everything, I think. I often describe this in terms of relationship between questions and answers. You know, there seems to have been a, a, a very strong drive towards prioritizing answers, I think. What is, this is the good teacher. That is the answer. >> Right. >> I'm going to go into an examination where I have to give an answer. There's only the right answer and, you know, wrong answer. Whereas, you know, you would kind of like us to carry on asking questions I think, you know, so the idea of becoming is more, is about questioning. It's about asking ourselves the questions. And you know you can, you could imagine an education, you don't have to imagine an education system really because it's happening all around the world. Not necessarily in, in England. [LAUGH] Where the relationship between questions and answers generally I think is, is, is, is changing. I think, you know, in education politicians too are recognizing that, yes, you know, the, the desire for answers drives us forward as human, human beings. But without questions there are going to be no answers. And so the, the importance of asking questions is, is being recognized and a lot more now. And I think this is reflected in, in you know, national curriculum developments where a lot of countries are now emphasizing you know, a problem solving in, in small groups for example. Or so called flipped learning you know, where by age students will bring in things which they've learned outside. For example using the internet. And that will become the basis of the formal lesson in the classroom. So I think things, you know things maybe are changing. But, I think the competence, the competence and then moving onto the standards. It is very popular in some countries. It seems particularly in English speaking countries for reasons I don't fully understand. I think that's really part of a, a kind of obsession with, with, with the answer. and, and you know, I would really like to see us going back a little and saying, well let's, let's focus a bit more on questions.
