So Nicole this was an example of trying to take a medical student through a Foley catheter placement and we were trying to model some of the briefing interprocedural teaching and debriefing. What did you think about that? How did that go? How did that go? I really thought that the learning objectives that were said at the beginning of this were appropriately focused. So, you had sterile technique was one, which is a beginner goal. That makes sense. And then you had passing the Foley catheter beyond the bulbar urethra. Which, to me, and I'm not a surgeon, but that sounds like a beginner learner objective. And so I think that the objectives were appropriately focused. The intraoperative teaching, I thought, was really nice, because you saw that he was having trouble and that's something he didn't really realize. And so for you to think aloud and say, okay, stop, you're having trouble passing it. That gave him some wisdom about how you as an expert think about this particular process. And then you were able to guide him and say here's how, you didn't say this explicitly, but here's how an expert deals with this problem. We don't just try to keep jamming it in. We take it out and we find the appropriate catheter, and we do it this way. And then the debriefing I thought also was very nice in that the learner had to reflect, and then you gave them some reinforcement, and you definitely gave them some really good rules for here's how we think about this. And a little bit of correction. So, what would you do? Anything to tweak that at all? >> Aside from improving our sterile technique? [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] >> I guess the big thing I'm taking away too is the opportunity for reflection in all different portions of the model and really being patient enough to allow the learner to share those reflections with you So it was nice to kind of practice this during this procedure and trying to apply that to a larger procedure will probably take more time, but I think that those are some of the key points I guess. >> Yeah, and I think one other thing that might have been interesting to do is you talked about the fact that you might need a different catheter. >> Right. >> And I bet there's probably a reason why. Maybe there's an anatomic reason why or something like that. And it may have been helpful to share that with the learner as well. >> Yeah, I do think some of the interprocedural teaching probably could have been beefed up a little bit. [LAUGH] >> But I thought it was a really nice instantiation of that model, so good. >> Great.
